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7168 TO: (Officer —419m:0109, r9-Om nu b r b. u iIding ,






'PATE COMMENTS (Number each comment to show trorii who to whom. Draw 0 line OttOss ION inn stflitt. ., ■to,Cl.? 1rnsnt


a e car d nais as markecr BOLBOTENKOYas with machite j exhibit 9„tyloviet Exposit i on at llon ea 1 Fair in Canada Viph time ASSOWARY ZELENSKY was wexposition but his positioá.ebot known .Had contact A/zi. t LEAS E RETURN THE AT RiCA/E 'AtliouNAmic r Reports will be filed 7 1449/3. . ,




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SUBJECTANABOTNKO, 01407 (Aleksande(Patronimic unknown) SOUPC7 Varlous DATE


: 642 Oct.,1961

PLACE : Montreal, Que. PHYSICAL DFSCRIPTION: 5,11-6 f0,180-190 lbs, 30 ,-32 years of ago, blac% hoax comtod back, gray-brown rrul oyes, black brows, straight nose, Ions, face, well built, handsome, good manners, smooth, V-Lz


:_ Born Ukrainpl .resiclent_ef . Kiov, In 1941 resided k probab/y with o . Initestorn _ parents) -in TernoP-61 0 atonded SEeool in Lviv, studied lcu, receAved his law degree at the University of Kiev. Worksfor the_Miniotry of l'oreign Affairs, Ukrainian .T.ra, Kiev. Abroad for the first time,

LANGULGES: Ukrainian, Russian, English

e6, ic;

ADD11 7SS' • Kiev riZS (M l nistry of Foreign Affairs) / *









t=o y

At the crthibition and elswhere did not wear the cM4p1em SSSR on his lapel, n3 otter Soviets did, Wee always centrally located in the largest hall with machl000-l'y displayed around the walls, in the middle of this hall was a table with Sovio propas'anda literg,IF-9/ BOLD clan always around there, eittIng, standing or walking,' V I sAters were referred to him by other Soviet officials at the ozhibition for information, partiolOarly on oolit5cal matters concerning Ukraine. '-'ol, A,1261 Thor P. was refarred to Belb, by another Soviet official who pointed in a Ukrainian/ out Bon. and taid that he UOLB, does not have a steady job at the ebition, han more tIme and could talk to people. THOR approached BOLB3 and asked whether ho spcsks Ukrainian, BOLD, confirmed and informed that he van from Kiov, that ho we In 1941 in Tarnopol, wont to ebhool in Lviv and in Kiev. Ho abkod MDR about Canada, 4

how is tho life, how much he earns, if that in enough for living what nevus:porn (Ukrainian) are being published in Canada, moR replied that there are many UPoenian newspapers and that there is oven a Communist paper "OUR TAW'. A group of v1sitcro mostly Ukrahian MICTO5 gathorod around and everybody asked quoctions, no ouontIono Couoorood Vt7o3 loc'A of Ulrioinion Inscriptions and oNplaost5ons on the e7Mbtl, fluo!-:In float:ton of acholls in Ukraine at cot. : which BOLB, ex:plalood acoordlo (vial line. Later on THOR asked BOLO, about a post card with a vlow of Kiev, which BOB. brought and cave to him, Thor then asked for his signature and BOLD. hecitatcd, . but compiled and signed the post car:. To Ihor's question he said that he worRt


Page 2


for the : . ! i nistry of Teourity in 71ev, that he is new tl r: because he lorks there only


:or 14-1S asked e*n/lcit17 about this 1 nint y v of :lecur'rt ”- 1-.ut he

I nsist e d that T7T. said so). "1.7,ain more people gathered. Joibteno was asked cuestons aga i n. Vhot por„ition does Kirichenko now hold? -„Thy was he shot? Bon. explained that Kirichenko was not Shot, but he is now holding a position in the trnnsport, which is one grade belnw t'lat he held before. flne oF the old emigres asked a question: "And ncbotv ashed ' , ou to defect yet?" to which another added "If he wanted to defect he could do it today, he has ki mil brains". PCLB. replied that he is not going to defect because he wants to live together with the Ukr^inian people. To the q uestion who is now the premi e r of T7krrine DCLP . exp lained tbst 37C7

end added "he who is a young and

very able man, our man". Yalchenl-o was old and has to go, you know. " Thor aa-ed then no Ticrei nian ItIn I stry of Finance :and wh7 the P.ussians are. in such ewe ions why t, en is greet sueriority. TVIT3 replied that it in true that the Russians ore su p erior now, hut sometime in the future the Uinians will balance ()Lit the 2,nsalans in Ukraine. I:77 it possible for Ukr ,-„]ne to become an independent nation, Thor -sked, Yes, rplied POLB. Ukraine can cecede, but " y e go together with Ru:7,ians and that is good". Thor proposed t.o PCId. n bal I p en on a souvenir and in excLange for a post card he gave hi, but POLB. refused t o accept it. He also said to Thor, referring to the previous convcrsatin about defection: "T.

don't understnd these people, they must love completely been brour.F,ht

up diffeentl y ." he refused to go for a drink with Thor. Al aso 1-na a short conversation . with ITU?. He remarked that the exhibition show only Puni a. Polb then said "and 7,ou wanted blue and ye low color (flags) here? Al r (Tlicd,

1Jentod 0, least that you hod herethe rod and ra.ta,.7 blue color", and

added that he :1 not AntclId to needte nny-Lod

win pointinr, out

the truth.

PUP was apolog tic, and said that he knew that Al's intentions 1,.re not bad. They talke( also about L 1Y and Al remarked at the end that it all der,ends on " ,f ou, the TTheAnlans inside, how flTeine will look". HOLD thinking that Al was rTeabing with some disregard to '17c. h.idans inside, protested

3'11(1-that ti:e

page 3


future ef•nraine choxid be also of concern to the emigrat i on and to al l Uhrellne. AT or:Tlaincd that or courro there in a groat concern of the emigration n nie it and what ho wanted to Gay was that the Ukrainian people la Ukraine are in the place responsible about the fUtute of Ukraine and that the emigration can do very


little about it. DOD was catiefied. Finallynk3 said that after the e7hIbitien over he and othors plan to go to Toronto and to Niagara Falls, AI gave him hie a04177e. and telephone c) in Toronto and ached him to come to roe him. MIfl. caid he 2„O Oot

PR Reproached POL1 ani ached him about an interview for the 0700 to

explained that he had already an interview with CHU13AROV 0 but ho does not cp,,a!c well :15 U lkra:inian and makes a bad impression for the Radio listeners. EOM. raid that ho

a "small fry" why not to go to the director, or If not why not to Y4K71;!7N-F0 0 who Ukrainian and is In the Commercial division the deputy of the chixf. Ho hir=12 dos not much timo right now, becauso right new come now people arriveft , 0 thcy ore at the Airport and he EOM, has to bring them over heropby sending to the 1 an automobile. Ho also said to a question that ho Is not

a opociallst In the

of technical matters and machinery"my epee:laity is complotel y (11 frorent" he Ho did not elaborate. EOM. was tryg to help RR to locate YAK71','NE0 'end t.d.,-n moved around they mot two people) who wanted to go for lunch, EOM. e!lid to then OK I will brin tm to lunch ( that means that BOLD, was itnLA escorting otbere,) It wao l_nterecting to notice that at one occaoion when there steed ERIGAMTCW (direc of the'..ovict yzhibition) 0 YAn17THC and TIOLBOTMKO they spoke to 17:17=1C'j Ruainn cnd nug thmscl:(Jes In Ukrainidn. n ctmd1. rd, R: TVA MI.JJOT L, T, a very IntoWg00, youn“.maor Wth

V7.77 -• C7:

has in himself something UkTainlan vMen and wall uomd. It looks like he . buroacratio carce,c o I 1 Loolts like a man who is still to young to be spoiled by his

doos not got er.cited end annyt. bohavier nnd eenversat l ons has a "dip l omat i c toueb" 0

1 :L 4 on rtaT.',1

-nr, :7, , Iontroca TrA(:0

2;3 c_cPY 4 Qut-c---z_c_i_etvsKAy-Pt'rxi° ) "'A*




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1. -611 143 Get _and Carl


Irit'd,41.7.;. :!: 1;41.21, - . llag,TUen

d clutanary report on:kg :tits c)f •?,,,,,r• c itrrls anti of i . ` , ,T.-1-1e do 7... 16.,c4)-1(446 at tho rztaibition Oat on 15 a 13C -..:1'.,t0TI:117.1-f) Clo1.1-.7,41 : "0 ,..)r..1.%•nt durinathir v131t, nr.0, lu.noh

Irns arYorc,!101-,Icti whoa %flatting tile'jo•riot 1 t-.;ladly o.e`'..0(1 left for a try Lro). ot ono of t'no strnras 4.5tos •' rtort,ly beIng undia'airbec.1 y othor poopio. torc:s, te e;N:210.-_'..'n to 1.-.Jr. 1,11.-•at fC.T .0 :1'111'14,11143 • 110 lion dentfor irW.oh ri f.311-unit c43. arZ, int7; r t M-cmt3 7:C1" ..tr1e do YID i--,1,;-4134‘;:aolt.1 and 3.4bcrat5.en e.),..r.n clucrItio.ns ofA prourrzLnticml. r1P C`.1(•:.%.f.:1 rit1( . 01 lbesf!..clou. 1.4hat nr.urato Av.,n cry g3vorrzlo):1: 14 .-0.0141,d t 11 • i„-/1111 ,,or;11.1ar opre ant at t 1 ,, c1 , 1.In 0-3:ini(lat, '-t-b.t.)oo..,1.,:1-fy not only 111'3 r 13.03Lt tigio to &3 - 1..,1 1(' .i.ot..-41.0..o1.-1--!..a an(:1 roe,-c.Iraf,--,:c.ntu" and (. t,D r.”o 'c '1,1*0 mem orl-y col-rorzlhonalvo mtdrial oPrucsh '3 mtn -91-irrioa0 nr,:-.ts G uii o'ovio; that ;511Jost, f ,sza 1-'13 o-i-Te'aant J and iIO1 tho 1-,,o11c.,7,r :In tiao stronLly arItit3tipr-osont r3,7.,.,3 k.ept '?:‘,11.or:4;•, eit 11 ,7r slif_r:tr.,-,ly ii=k deny -,Lt r 2. cin

arrannt of ft, 413 00 4,1 1963.7 Cm 15 •:t 1. ,)61 0 ricoO.rdi. iv, to tho eoiO of -:;t1C,,,a-1--.....1-101-.*n0 and plit 10.30 hr s cr., the ti-lon to t-Jic Drz.z.71'ioncl )71.11.1B() ‘,11--...cro Carl \me .o (.)ortvor 13.(413 ri T o r.,.f.-,r--#,:1(1to o to 'cant 1-..r114) wvc nerao, r fir,0*.1.1 ,kt more. iyoctyx).r.Tis) tiherr..1 t1.-Ikry r or j or(4 ctrii)?..0 fo.r 10-15 Ezi.nut-.!s. -,inrz L they • Du:T.:I nc,to ht u000 ti000 fl !.Ltb.out R o r,1 cr1 to taiL t ano',1o Pcth 1,“••:ro tio.0 ..r,hovn1n turnY i n 1..;Lbrory and f.:;: arl to r: rcfrxr3,1 .11; r;or,,o t2:1111 in prootO 1:7 af,-.14:11-4, I xi and,iiO J t nt--...Itt -I:: ;Jo1r rotivrti :Cron Illagar...), the prorj.-:',ed to Ilhone P., "in due "i • er117117, 6)1 n!n-,=1,7,7-,ant ,40c.ivc:r1 to 7 nop 00-toloc-re -fincry 1c)tt...,l/ t roll. ,obal: •, 1y or. (7,Q1.-/t.otlirz •,::n 21 ot 1%1 4-t. 22.45 0 3 r: :H 4„7,11f.*: , )n-treal) si,. :, J;iicry • 7.0.10 at ia hotel ("IA ;,..k111;:; 11 ,110011• 519 1 . L)r-1.1 j I"; /..11,: tt.y;,•;) p ov,11(.1 1.1 for -7?!• ..11, h • Ost• y 10I 014 1' ',Pi "j: 1. r.1.1.T.,.; c lo r t.l.T 0 ha°.:1.1:.),!1:11:1( Lnfr,7,1 eaS, biI.. it a fo •t:,(1 h;c in L.o of till f.ri h his 0 Torl_.ors• 31101.1 ,(1 ha tho L tt lon.vo/.1. t 'iM• n9t,,, ler the LTA feu P ,17..nn4,; y- 0,71 110.- lot `,!, (2:1c1 llot t ••, havo everini-2,•


r1 •^* ',1(SOd

32, 1119

an I 1.) n

acr.11: auv y-,Arizitorlqr.Zici

tato Arran



vo eChtl TC"

eiritnoyo of.Uoial (" ..atta01: fic.troLl ,,s triVo1.c,141 4- P s a or acoa 4 of ,:7:1-z,inian 1‘, ,..doIr.cs. tucnt cS • :1„, --iniokrs7 of Pcrulcn 111-.1V.; of the !, have bccn at ono 13 I n fathor w.Lth :trhon ho thor (don :`,.;" t12, G tit!=to frir:'om kiF1.3.,...1.1 oo u rflit G o. 7VDCIIrs.IKO * `k:1-..rf'intan Irrit;o: Ivan LB ■ rlia e,or;cribocl APA N/irlted th rvr:n LL• ILO wcHr..t: * 13"s t'•,11:v.'r quo on vory itionay term in ono uao c:1ao3 n thi! Uth t ondotl tho ri ho aLto 204-4.0, on tho to lont; vouls1 not h i foTolz-ild ttrt rti actxxa. a turcs, raa .. 4.*ar quarrel:nu) beiaatt0o of' hio edol3f,torioi,La4raatriZofanci not :.!;1c.m E.* Gle. n tho trholo• oplaion alzut K* vac). wry f=t v-)5()-52 ho stuad . Terno1. 5.1.1 nJ thP.T1n 01-rxthivs-ofrt :1944-47 B. L tr tat coliettt sortr:.,.(1 uith tho An in Lvov and bc:L:o-!- 0 L'A Lri I ay. 19f41. : rr:rith0 c.p) ho attornay voyornYyd. proktixor). 1961. in 0:7: Txlaty ufe nilltax7 Ltrr of l'arac y, Af1e:12-e in jov ri in rank joinod tho rem .- e.ntfl J tho ,job A.ezo to Inintain 1ion betve , la Kiev .07.1a040 bc: called "Rx-oa.-oU,a011011. oroP• Van ;1.tnf to and the Eii-af;tr * 'dad no lir or ,:aDlanatlo oalloatIon or ox of-2. .2,rn!:;1,,a1 or UUo1iaTairc (ca .Lod of tho aee, for t1/2 .:r job. 6i.-;•=od to bacmucia ho ti1Ta:)t lilt.; van Volltica!)01,71t. ) ir tho itaolf ordktith nitY be railor poori fanilia,rizeLli , with a/tux:II:len in hi 0iccrip1Atr-0A/o3tocl.)intel1icents , Soviet (1214:l0notie : ;ervs 1,e. a in olouly o ni 1±ttle : a:ivridad ph/raaeo. to by liontioned to; . t and Gail that nh h Zi] La tAnc, Kicm beeat= "he was sent for ',-.1-rAt atIread". r000rt LI k

SOS311012'. " 1.>

thal ho,


oto -10,-Atzod: to r le.1 10 zIny D i elnim.od to bo for t'no fire; V.I.:To abroad • ': cac70 his cr:-ontual culyInj to tLo -ozt cca1114 Road 0.::ainica cialo:oo h1c l'anictit4 VfiLif,tOl t1Z-0 IS41 11;;I;oalt-10:7:3 I tr.otr 'o n thV' fa:Ilea to chow' heavy moll:I:lax:7 1:o!izo'd cz0 oritifal.!;€4t n 1S/ L nlpralz4 tho ozectoolimai: L.;1:7,:ity.:,,,ne (in tl'olac4 vp..To;1 botta."14



'01 44. 1 7,1





Unl.v::„Ity ofren1f.c.:11 ot 1ccirO c•;:i.:?"3..1..0. o An L o-T" cn o . n .1303.rd foi E:LaLlc:T . f:3 ff,r0::: 1 7. 7-1 0 :1J. A"). J;2:7, (.111:.1 t '. •T• :Ty r7:211 ::: 1C) rqr,::=77 ai'cfn u f L c2:71-7,7- 0nA tL01::o t3 nno VO,7•1 o a 2 tar .; : 17-Lt..1 t() " . " ` , c2). tj2o .r ootur o0 • eicr:o awo toZot r A. 11---`610 follouinz JC O ttv:1 1106 vhc,. L cm:1 Ki rk::;ntr.r. -.nt tisa="0 a lea("ker of a pfxvi lo uho has 1:1.veCi nOthOr r0:1:1/,'19L aontsi.mot. JOIT9 COP: Ont. t 0 trtIran that "crlen to ...clay" the .4.

Z, to

1ot a rg.1‘,,•41'tin::. act biz-ail:Inn peop:10,



7.2:5;10:...riX.1.37,1,11.7at.-:0. :.;nolan very moll to D. "A co . ..4 pol!.tioian" and fw trustod by tbm 3 c ,, 5.e. frtglr lill ,Z11 ri S 0 CS a t,t 1'1 C;.!:_rt,', of DaChanko IT ,,,,,aragz4 ....,,1„...„,cr c c,nraritte, G-3n.cration 0 fT LIDO Ci L' i...ra.,..."2.1. - C.,. n. a rid ,C .; 0 Oa ecv,, • I 0

I TTh, -

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-1f1,23Uon. Ify (7. 0rm:li,. o rvnA. :.1"o 0.nd o zviyLIxairaPna cver On rA:)zeoir thoto illatirtt -, nut to :Av"faot" ilOr.inr=30 ,or aTei wloldinl; L reA ,-:A.Astor o. out by that .!.:11(.cy u c boin;;d iiii .(TirY. YirLInnl) in 911

i roguto am1..147'2!;. =14 tarivcr -50uiot un..10,11 Gormnn -A-C111 : 1 16 yearo'aftor the 1E1c Ind lf i?L . d. ."70 rr..77-oT . ny,Oao ho them concoted rut-,:Ign frau ici t1-4 -2,rorot 0 11 tb,11 W7r3 fijlt 712 f..J,71.1n a3 . in 'Luc 1ct net 4IttrItt 121ons. ,inol. !:Irvn13 ,v,mant - arc m tcn t(:ottlo Gck,an protian are th r) :t t•.thld bo:'fr A oc,lotruoti,2o 3,11--%;;A t!:xuffr:,oti. tryln to v,:;[ict OrO vrd poc.:Ltl,on by q t) .1-!..tLciron1Lto oxgalortn Z. trlc oct.mtrol 1 th &'7,o-crint Urion unto " 1 cnn t=-_;u1.11r0 11. bvrt vv. 124 Sinn 1-rzt%

.t:t both kEZZ) it lo ati11 FiT't 1.


Eet a lonn

the Dank. for

1'4'0 1--n.

clArocto7,T; of Institttc:, havc I)oon "'„%.7c.motod." tc the titla


cvcr.y yr.)r(3 nrw.s: 1:1 gor n thy ;7 .ro Tho ItIt41101Otho ;And .."Jr-r:AolfwatC oT not.he t A .::(:ainn.ano avo :1,!1 ce of tl- )o.nd thc) JUr16 to . %h 110 , c! tryIN .; to eplatn nal tAln nogativo3 by 'dici on.;.1n:tAtrod vith oyoor.lito T y. and r-.''.::f.mnto of bro.L1.1an tho hen.vy ifl(11 . mizra*. ,4 g. occ;r:6711 :7A-c-Aith I ww,TI.nonts :ucp3tcd oia raOcanz o ti belatid caa d hcy ::xch 441 vory 1:ic) batl Iilanbt,..4 of no :tnportatom wcro tc) thnt :-'10 cut ntaturi:illY".* 'and it vrn th07,0 :LI no :‘,r!)rfLiot 13.ctnrinll:bvc.;Oit• 1 ":. ', olatio Trj4 Zo 14* Alaylia wore Imchiad 16oll to oontrv,Ty. Ee rl v,F117.111- . . • tiettnrJ,17alry ult; 3r.A.1hc1r 13. tit41




tErlia. r ZS1LZIIX,L=EQJZQEEE 7R 7.2 r2961 CTER,




10.10 Anill 12.10 FM

According to previous arrangements PR waited at the corner of St. Ca,3. therine DruJnmend Sts at 10 AM. At 10105 ZELENSKYI came. RR asked if anybody else would coins and En1 replied that EOLEOTENNO is coming coon. RR had with him a Wa11e!, which ho wanted to present to MI,. Ho told ZEL, that he had a-little present for him and that it was prebab7y better that he handed it to him right away, before Delbetonko comes. Zelen9kyi accepted it without much ado. POLBOTRflK0 approached than from another direction and all thpoo headed toward PEEL St., and PR lead them :Into the Cadillac Restaurant, PE started the cohvercatIon by suing that he wanted to havea%alttle talk with them, bec4Ase it was impossible to talk at tee exhibition, Re wanted to talk tt them because they are Ukrainians, not only because they use the Ukrainian language, but also because one has a fooling that thoy are real Ukrainians, Eo caid that the sresence of T.Prainlans from the Soviet Union and casual convoraatielo 14th thrm raised hie spirit°, because .6horo are very rare opportunities for meetlnzd 141co this. After a flew friendly exchanges during which BCLBOTENKO . remarked that he always speaks Ukrainian at hems in Kiev RR developed a basis for the debate which wont fo11 , ccnon


3 Poro ore T IraInnno from two part :4 ot' the world,. they have comothftP r; 2,r1 1Thclyore U lsralnlnne, ne.:3 Ukralnlann

10 a Ukraftnlan r, tato


ti-vit Ukralo develops well In all

state tht tbt tbe

booing of 1")e people inereat3e6 and the nrainlana abroad have a somewhat different view. They both (Z71, 110IIM often ask a quetion"uhat do the emigres want fr(1.77) Tot no talka oi thee :tftnes and (17:change views.





12 OCT',.;a7P, 1961






12.10 FM

According to previous arrancoments RR waited at


corner of St. Ca,,. et Drummond Sts at 10 Ati. At 10.05 ZEinisiori came. RR asked 140111d




coff.:a and ZE.L. replied that BOLE0717,11K0 le coining soon. PR had with hilm a toilet,

which he wanted to present to 'LSL. He told ZEL. that he had a little present for Vm and that it was probably bettor that he handed it to him right away, before Brdbotenke comes. Zolcm?kyi accepted It without much ado. FOIPOTEIKO approached them from another direction and all throe headed toward PEEL St., and RR load them f4nto the Cadillac Restaurant, BR othrted the cenversation by saying that he wanted to have(Cantle talk with them, beca%oe it was impossible to talk at tne exhibition, He ranted to talk tt them because they are Ukrainians, not only because they use the Ukrainian lanuage, but also because one has a feeling that they are real Ukrainians. He said that the orosence of Mrainiana from the Soviet Union and casual convorcatiowIth them raised his spirits, because t:tern are very rare opportunities for meotince this. After a flew friendly exchanges during which DCLBOTENKO remarked that ho always speaks Ukrainian at home in gin! RR developed a heels for the debate which went as rellowsa Dore are T7 I re1ulans from two part ;A of the world, they have scnethirgLa (7,7Ton To_co ,Jve i,hey vvo Ti4ralnlans. The Ukrainian() from T.Traine state tt, tha7:e is a Ukra:!nlan Ptate 0 that Ukraine develops well In all

thc tbo yell

beelnz of 1`.,(3 people increases and the Ukrainians abroad have a oomewhat different view, They both (ZEL& MD.) 'often ask a question n what do the emirres want from 12071 Tot an trA:lk it

tIlee 1inos and ertchango views.



RR : Could you give me an answerm whether under present Soviet condition 3 nraire really develops in the Ukrainian senee.We hero knou that we cannot bu ild U lr-a i ne l'ren hero but we are very interacted in the development. Done Ukraine really eist and strive or in it only in your 0: Coviet papers and radio? ZEL. DOLD.:It depends how one understands your question. Looking from the outside one can always see some negatives, but on-the inside Ukraine exists . and wont far ahead, _ much farther than in the 1930s end in all directions . in shooels and universities they teach much more Ukrainian language than then, more Ukrainian books are being published and ocono ically and industrially Ukraine in now



ZFL. Gave an example of himself no one who van going from village to village in the Carpathian mountaino asking and convincing people to send t cIr children to school and he gave a recent statistic from the Lviv Ivan Frank° u niversity according to which the enrollment at that University for the year 1961,4962 shows C(1 Ukrainians, 10% Russians and the rest other nationalitleo like Jaws, Poles at cot. PR diocucsed the economic development In Ukraine and switched to international reecgnition of Ukraine and to diplomatic relations with foreign countries. Without di.r70matic rolationo i ho said, a state is not an idependent state. The Ukrainian emigres think that Ukraine, without diplomatic relations, is a canny of Russia, because it

Is not sufficient that the Soviet Union as the whole- represents Ukraine and her 4 nterests in the economic and political sone°. BGLBOTFNNO: In this direction we are taking some stops. This problem is being discusnod on the .inaide. We have taken steps to open a Ukrainian Consulate in Toronto, tut the Cardlon Government end others too don't oCTeo. When thin srbject is din7,scd In Kiev the majority opinion is that foreEn missions are necessary. RR: That is a positive thing and having missions abroad Ukraine would eemo to the esition she hold in the 1920a when she had diplomatic missions abroad. ZEL: That


true but at th t tine Ukrnine had only 6 ministries and no w she

page 3

he ever 10— 7Tre.-20 are 16 m .lnistries new 9 but what about the Any? On riper there lo a 1-1721— stry of Defenee I but !,.11 reality ro an7mer. PTA The economy ln ntrong yono but It io directed from Moneow. And forolt;n tradeD yhat about it Ukt•aine door) tradlnE; with foreign countrien a hut all goon throus,h MoDeow and uho knmlo if thin

to the advantage of Ukraine?

It in not oltaotly co. Wo have hero at the othibitlon a man w!lo in a roi7roconta--tive from Monoow in Klov, Ho in a good man and one can cooperate with hilm, ho deco not make diMoultloo 17771 9


dependn en a man.( no rwitched the whole FToblcm

to eol'benalitien)

7,0t un take the aopectAof culture. Numbern of publArhed oepion of boon and maFanines In 7,3krnInian langvDge


very lo7, Even such a book an Udevycher!:e'o

hem not been euhliehod in Duffleient =barn, Road you paporn end you v121 C:!.nd t!

,that oeople are coman i ning of rhertacen of booko and neworapen and v1-3en •1 1M900 /10C11.7

nre available abroad 1 in Canada


America, the

CC:M' of

CMnr7,700 go .":1 a


cuppertod idea f.,1 , 1t, t!no hook o aro publiand for the cmicTetlen prInarlly. Ten yoliroolven 9 do the'booko cuff:len for ove4 I the librarien alone. Mu cold th=.0 are 07cr hundred thoueand librarion In Ukraine and when a hou% In publ:Ixbod In the

mo-ult of VI or even 20 thouDnnd copion in that enough? (POth looked denrecn,ed and did not give any mower) rDTD: 7o.rx mrueri nnci ml.rotion3 we shell dincunn and no will tel:e thou ':nto conlOeralen, ERA :( :1=J the we here and you there wonted to do norot\. !:!ng fjecA


I thITO3 tore .1r a bade for It regardloon of our eenvic.tIons. Z7L3


rft T


it thin Ala.,/ we want an economic deveAoinmt by 011.013 por10

tholr nccd, nAro we want cultural dovr,lopcnt l whwtnver p:7;oplo wyni6



and aloe political inasmuch as this is possible, and the possibilites are big. But you hero must help us in one direction -ovo i d war. day and nir,ht Rao The Sovlot pro p s writos all tho time that the Uhrainian emigres rurt”* .'e only one single idea a war arra 4 n0 the Sovilet Union. 7t in not so I could unppiy you with evidence from the Ukrainian newspapers hero that the emigres do not want war, and we are against war and I myself write articles against war, having in mind that according to previous historic events Ukraine always moffort most from warp, MIDI We had the opportunity to got a few copies of "Homin Ukrolny" and "Nevyi Sh/akh" and there are articles incouraging war0 k visitor to Ukraine ra rftmm gives a false account of what is going on in Ukraine, particularly about Russifleatirm, that Ukrainian language is being removed and I myself opeak Ukrainian at home and was studying law and had lessons in Ukrainai and court procedures In Ukraine aro conducted in Ukrainian. (ITR injected here "since l960").And by the way if this Wore so hew could we know Ukrainian languago and speak it 0 If we would not use At at home. Ms But in the streets of cities rOLB; There is no coercion, everybody does as ho wishes. ZED And my daughter goes to a special school rtth in which the language of Instruction is English. They both stressed many times that shortcomings are but thoy should not be taken up co vigorously, because they are temporary and they are being removed In big strides. Everything Ds becoming better.

na7 Concerning the usage of Ruoslan language in Ukraine people should have spine and use their own Ukrainian language also in the streets. Y,00k at to

Frenel in

(BOILls Explained to ZEL. that the French wore the first sottlors In Canada and were later conquered by the British.) Visitors go to Ukraine and came back and they coy that in the streets of Ukrainian cities one hears predominantly the Russian lrAnguog90 People should have spine. (They both did not object, they remained- silent)

RR: 0 ,.,1-.)o you have to make a report about this conversation, but I don't care, but Iwouldn't 11" ,:o to coo that after you return to Ukraine you =,Ild tay that you mot abroad cuch a bour8eois nationalist named Pman Luk:Inynovyell 2 but thDtcad were mooting with a Et7ntn±nn micro -nationalist, a hent

you could E:tty that

Ukrainian, who de3iros for ralne the came as we dooiro, onlyt that he deco not accept our eystom and our concept. 7,171 No don't have to submit a report to anybody


What do you


am not afraid now of any NM, I talk in complete freedom

with f-imio 7.71,1 Cortalnly we shall tell our frlerl ds about it We don't have to be afz-ald about It at all.



Page 5 M. Complained that Ukrainian emigres hata the

no from the Soviot Ukraine


and constantly needle them.

na 11:pla i nod that it in not co„ there In no hatred as Eucha Ho referred to th ting of Volnycluk in the Soviet pro 2e Theco•uritings are full of hatcred and libel Molnychuk describes the emigres as agents of imperialists, trauers who got money from intelligence services and the fact In that those cmigros while publichftng their papers live in very poor finaelal conditions In some instances they might make mistake but they believe that they servo well the Ukrainian cane°. The truth diplomatic/ is important everywhere and if there was a Ukrainian mission in Canada cr!cl other couttries they would probably find out the truth and Melnychuk would be prohibited to write his lion (RE went into this intentionally to provoke them)

roml have toad you already that offorto are being made to establish missions. ER : May 1 write about it in the papers, particularly concerning the Ukrainian Consuslto in l'orentb. DUB: No, 1 have informed you personally aboutit, thin In a matter of dip?onatle conversations and for the time being it must stay out of the prose. •

I abold by the journalistic othicn and I won't p011ch your information.

PO Y B: Pointed out that Melnychrk takes the matter° in such a way that thoca who are against the Soviet system are enemies and also those who are not for the Soviet cistern are enemies. PR Such argumentation is not always successful. Una should not always -look in of black and white alone. At the present time when oven Marxiam- L oniniem in being ecrrocted (they both t1,611,A) thqthoin "either or" is not rif:i;ht. Cur thesis


that we must scree in some polnt. Even in such situation an this in which we pore,.: naily aro now. We talk, you are Soviet, maybe members of the party, maybe you havo to write a report about our

'Carev 4and I am I do t


as you nays a na-

tionalists but I consider myself a Ukrainian democrat „ but we agree hero at this table on ono point...

page 6


Both In what point? [A.7700, that ve dlTfor.

1',2 That In rt do

rDTH:(m enh at sta y tie) 0 yos,that 15 true. Thor:) is another point of aa-re=cnt, however, and this point Is that we are nralnians and we want that the Ukrainian people could devolope freely and could preserve its idontity. Are we in cerement or not? ■•■

Doti): But we tried to convince in Lbio point. 11R4 Nov, It, It a pla•o for MelnyohuR hero? Ho rnyn that no are bnndits, that no ynt ,.ak not only to drop bombs on Ukraine, and we hero agree . here at thin table. And I op for ryself. There are rnny like myself'. And oven those who needle think tht they do it out of part1otie duty, becaure ho thinks that you are servants of Esscciw. 6 who Is Melnychuk. DOM. cnolained that he road his wrItins , s at one 7,7La Asked IMLB, tima but not any moro* Mt And I tell. you, I consider you as coed Ukrainians and I think that you rTorent1171 yourlVen well arpkrainlann, hut you cannot do any good tyx with


lnychvh and

ottlern like him, because we know that he does it on order and that thin order is not fl-em rho Ukral

v • la.slde, And peo ple like "olnychrk only put s8nd Into our

engine. (n1,1 has very pleased with thin raxprossieh and said: 1 will toll it differcaty he have alflo put co!'n

o cnnd into your macine by toiling you the truth about Ukralr.e.

DLYLD1 Mat ntrl.kca me in micro pacers is that they writs that Sbevehonke was ot



• was porcocutnd by Russians, thot ho 1:!,2 h1c1 :-0,rmo, th0, ho


I ne

clOP() by

the o7arlot regine.

but no don't f:Are ?.."y2ratinv, it 1„0 tru.. r,71 0

libCM1BL a


the truth th a t hn

ovbenlco out oP prison (M uvo arl (;:ulmpTh oC nrnn:,,e)A ra In

i by 111,T;Oniwi pot in Canada wtiro thin fact was poAnted out and•omphan l cd Is hod a] co to mcplain who flalaniuk wan) BOthI


1:-; vary ir.toresting

Page 7 RR And more, our thesis Is not that we fight against the Russian people EOM/ What are you saying,. cad you paporn here. in Canada nad America. -

ER: Your statement i3 a proof that you have no sufficient access to Ulrrainlan cations abroad. Any one of your editors taken an emigre paper, picks out an artsele which has propaganda charaehter and writes on articleof his awn cmphasizing how the Ukrainian emigres hate the Russians. Put take a look at some other publications as a line of policy/ and artiolon where editors amphnise that Ukrainiann who desire an independent, sovereign Ukrainian state do rst, wage war against the Russian people, because we do not believe that the Russian people want to enslave Ukraine, but we think that the Russian imperialist leadership which holdo-with iron hand the Russian an well no the Ukrainian peoples in responsible for the enslavement of tho Ukrainian poop:ion However, if the Russian people in to support Ito leadership in this respect they will be held responsible too. EOLBI Where is thin wrtton? PRs Lsten, gentlemen, comrades, or haw should I address you... Za: Call as you wish. Pal I dent want to create difficulties for Ukrainians, and I would not like to do


Ato the Russians either. But listen. At the exhibition approached amen and

asked him if he in Ukrainian . Ho said no I asked whether there are Ukrainians here and he said, C yes, there ore Ukrainians and he pointo to ono saying this one I s a khakhol" I won't t 11 you the name because I don't want to be an informant. Us Ho probably did not moan anything insulting COM: l 'ad we could call him Fatsap. 1111 Put I tslkod to about 7 Ukrainians from the exhibition staff and no one raid Katsap, BUB* It in very interesting who said that. RR/ I dent want to montlon any names, maybe he did not mean an insult„ but back to the Russian problem. I don't want to put you In on awkward position and tharcfore,

Page 8 .■


J.f it lo acceptable to you or note I con select come articles fnom


the U1 ,.min-inn proos eondorning questions which we discussed t ,„lny and

ccuJ :J cend

thra to you You wi l l read them and then you will toll yourselves what you thin!: about tcm, And you on your part could send seme material to


50th l Agrcecl, and Ill what material are you interested? RRIlf you are intorested D I will send you tho matorialooncerning


done-o pt of

Uftrulno, we cha1 . chow you our poine'of view concerning the place of nraino n the world. On the other hand I


interested in the material from you,dnalirg with the aamn

problem, We ore not interested In what kind of suit you

y ear,


we ore :Intor(3nted in

your concelA of nkraino as a . stato and its place In the world, Do you hare such 6 a program? If you have, then we must learn about it and got a q uaint e d with A

Yon with


and we with youts, Mathematicians say that oven to parallel lines

meet somewhere, co maybe our concepts if you have ono, have also cone rnintn of meeting toetber,

roTp your

behlnd it? Is it And whe are those people who express such ideas, who in

1002? (EL,)

flP,tI don't have any position In any group, I am ti journalitit. wht„aro you on individualist? different world, where the press is indcoondent. I oven! rant to have the right to criticize the group with which T. agroe„ end Y. may sympathi

Pal You mult get a notion of


more with ono coup then with the other. Such ideas an O7





nicy ore ex:preened by p0Oplo

In 5 ;A. fnc)nceruod bc


cy.pressed hero are not by dcop')y lhvolvrA nthc,


hP 1,",rfO p T

tc , loam that thin ideas and pertleUThr ..(y

s iuu i


. rirr


conccpt c.7enas

aro being expressed by former participants in the



They are proha l ly



cnderground in Ukraine, nose who organized. the UPA, Se, it is not true,

mpere v:7 . '

write that we wat to slautor all Vaelans apd all the polos„

page 9. This material I can send you EDth: Plcaeo cona it to us,rz 2 . tfm5 it will net inconvenience u p at all. (we ehall not have any trouble ) At this point Bolbotonko and Zelonakyl gave their addresses in Kiev and Lviv and nR gave hi p address in Montreal. All the addresses exchanged were of fice arldrocos.

42,1): But we have hero in Canada our progresoive press. RR: And that in your trouble. There rra mutual copying of articles in Badianslm Ukraina and the progressive prove here. You write that there are many Communists In Canada and thin io not true. 85% of Ukrainiann in Canada are not co7muninto but nationalists and your arid the progressive press write to the contrary. You say that the Canadian Government does not want di plomatic rel ations with Uktaine, but tho s e who have some, if not large, influence upon the govonment are nationalistS and not progressiven, Ho have members of Parliament, we have a federa l mlnlotsro we have senators and the communi:to don't have them at all Ho would like ttml the to/ Canadian Government respect Soviet Ukrino an a state, if you say that such one exists, an Poland, and oven little Albania Jo treated. But they . cannot treat, it CS such when Ukraine in a part of Rusoia.

roth: This is not true, excuse no. Zelonskyi started to explain tho structure of the Soviet Union, the friendship between nations and that Ukraine le an indlvIcIblo

part Of the Soviet Union, Thin wan established in the 19203 by the will of the people and at the present time there is no nse of changing the statun.

and thin in based on facts/ UR: And hero lien the difference between the emigres and you We coo that Ukraine in not only a part of the Soviet Union but aloo a part of Husvia. Both: Interrupted frequently and protested that thin in not true that on the •invido nobody speaks like that.

02 The fa cts are that on the outside Ukraine in prevented an part of Rut:via l, and foreign paporn write it like that Ho cave an oxamplo with the Netill Univer:TIty


page 10

student meeting With 2 Pussian ntudents from Leningrad and that the Canadian press r• l7ertsd that Usrnine is Russia, Doth: Tho foro:Icn prose distorts the facts TM: Let on take the inside story. In Ukrainian poetry in Ukraine thoro alsmyse muot ho Nesecw, Pusola, and Ukrainian pooto must Inject this subject constantly, like a batlushkn repeats his halloluyah. 1 can eventually understand that Moscow Is the center of the Soviet Union, but why Moscow in every poetry? The difference is this that cur center in Kiev and yourn is Moncow* St

ancuor to

in "You knew.U.-ot.ost.)

v ChInee poet writes about Elmaftn3 Shovehonko, I read one recently, ho

pp q

writes alont PnTpro, about glev,about Ukraine. Hot once ho mentioned the part7,. LfIn or !loscow, and a Ukrainian who writen about Shevehonko t771 1=edintoly injectn the party, Dmin, the J rcmlin 4



ilvsola and Shevehenko


the U"kralw'm

people in secondary. Decauso the Chinese has a nonce of human dignity end Ealcor i'romler of Ukrainian SSR wrote in an English language booklet that Ukralr- , in a part of Pussina say it is not true

tlI rj


that Englinh or American peers distort

facts. Put T can givo you your text in which you will find It

EOM: 'You know when a Chinos° writes he writes it from a different point of vow, he looks differently at thoso matters. And we nee the only way in cooper04on win Pussis, because° only from ther6 we have mInport. Ph: Thor:e are the differences between


IA) want that Ukraine ho treated at least -

like Poland or little Albania. ftt hose W‘,z)es do not belong to the Soviet Unlon, that is a different rrcc,dure. UP I if t.y,

then At is bettor to ho


satellite or have the


in the Soviet Union (intontional-provocativo), why should It be such a 'big difference, e:'e we inferior? Zel: Ten 't )1) srduoun,.. but an a journaliet you could help un when yon write the

page 11 truth about Ukraine, as we have told you RD: not truth, I could write positively only when the shortcomings I have boon pointing out hero to you are corrected, ZFL: You -are a believer, you believe in God a you chould help that the world in for peace and Lrrthilfr.,..- rrczx that war should be avoided, because Ukraine will be toyed and we loose everything, what we have today. RR: Liston, both of you, I believe in one thing alone, I believe in Ukraine and hero In the migration we all believe in the Ukrainian people end we want that it boconles something, Doth3 nut we want the same thing. PR: So it la an agreement between us ? Or io it like in Molnychuk writings? If there. 4 is an agreement then it should be for ell of us like in Mykola Kullch°0 play Sonata thoiA Patetique:"theoe are mink times that &Ukrainian going to rest, must put under his head a bag full of thoughtm about Ukraine, he must cover himoelf.with thoughts about Ukraine and he mutat rise together with the sun with troubles about Ukraine". Boq were very impressed, they rat for a while looking at the table deeply in thoui,:h and enthcarat said nothing. They only asked who was Wish. PR explained that ho wan a Ukrainian Soviet playwright in the 1920s and 1930s who porl:shed in tho.Burgoso RR: Continued, such times are now and we must think like that and there in 6ace enough here for you and for us and therefore I spoke to you, because I wanted to speak to live people from Ukraine, got their views end give my views and views of others like myself, -Ukrainians here abroad, because T-am not an exception. And 1 repesL, ovnn thse who are needling you


aro doin it beeaure they c.Innot pro-

perly e-wress thcmselves, but they .(lo it hocaure they bellow, in Ukralno end you don't show them this Ukraine. We don't make a groat issue about the system, but we suffer because Ukraine is an undordog ( you know Fnglish and you know what it means) g nd you know thnt this is the fact, you know it hotter than T do, And by no moans

172,-.1 12 rmrs intend to needle you VI: We know it and believo that you speak from your heart, PR, The time does not allow me to stay longer I must go new and 1 cm very happy that I had thin converstaion with you. EOM; 1 cm very catisliod and pleased had this conversation, because I did not have a talk like this one yet, ZEIA I havo not boon abroad yet, this In the first time and you Dolbotrno? nOLD , 1 am for

the first time too and therefore it in co interesting to have a tnn

like this, PR1 We should have talked more. EOM: We could talk more PRI 11 you could came to my house we could have tt more comfortable cenvcrsatic DOT33 We could come to your house, 03 soon as the exhibition is over, but ulrier cm) condition that when you come to Kiov you will visit me there a r ta And don't want to know you if you wouldn't visit me at homo. BULDI

vas a nice conversation, thank you for your nice reception.

rRa When Ulirainian students are cent abroad they should emphasize that they are Ukrainians, come are coming hero, maybe they are not Ukrainians and any that there Is only Russia. Both : That depends on a man PR: And those Who come hero and whom they call hero "those who have chosen freedom", look how the Russians do it. Khokhlov defects and in Australia Petrovo they viz-Ito books and articles and say that in the Soviet Union tho division into ropubllos Is only formal and that there is only Russia and nothing oleo. Both: T:oy hevo sold out their souls and they do and write what they are told hero like this/ RR; There 5.5 no need to force them to make statements hero, people hero want to get from them true information, but these people obviously grew up In such a pent:teal climate of no and indivisible Russia. Nobody forces them to say that. And that this f in true the best ovidcnc• is SETTA, who defected in Vienna, you hoard about him, and he stated that hmx Ukrainians are being persecuted. DOLB: Yes I know about Scroda. Zol; Who In he, what about him? BOLD: SFKDA, con of Academician from•Ktv, who in now in Lviv, he in a chemist and the non an electronics engineer, a young boy. MI 0, yes, yes, in Vienna you said. 5

BOLD: Yes, he stayed In Vienna, hodidn t want to go back (They didn't comont anymore on SYTEDA) 'RI: There are all kinds of sold out tmuln and they talk all kinds of ttlinn 11.11.0 your Klocnko, who dnfoeted In Canada, h e stated that he lived in poor- cendltionl) that he was -persecuted and ho had a house of hi:-; own (a villa). BULB: And he left 3 wives behind and an automobile, 71UA 10,000 rubles he brought with .him and onchanEed for dollars that is 10.000 •


BOLD; No, flR I.17nat





hoy don't want to exchange the

:It, thoy coy that ho changed his name, io it ponth1


and :as it t

easy to do in tho tImot3 • cf Stalin? A4.. Y2-7:Att ZEL: But be is a Jew RR, What 0.0 you ray? ZFLI Yea he

n Jow,


ln a Slavic) nnmn and no In 'Cloak°, why change tho nftmo.

BULB?, here are no and woro no difficulties in changing names, an ap plication to court, j.iaythe money and that Is all You know how rnany SNe ychen.ken thcre are cow Tr



can build a darn out of them.

Zr.13 And nagIno


now rubles that is 100.000 oi,. ones, and he said that he vr:13

In flnenclal. need. And he had a car and q,rarited to cell but ho had no tine,